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The B2B Roundtable

The B2B Roundtable

By: Brian Carroll
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The B2B Roundtable is a podcast about what dashboards miss in B2B revenue systems. Most GTM teams manage what their dashboards can measure. But the breakdowns that cost real revenue often live underneath – in handoffs, definitions, follow-up gaps, scoring assumptions, and the friction buyers feel but reports don’t reveal. Hosted by Brian Carroll, GTM system advisor and author of Lead Generation for the Complex Sale, the show features candid conversations with GTM operators, leaders, and thinkers about how revenue systems actually break – and what it takes to fix them. Learn more at https://www.markempa.comCopyright 2026 markempa Career Success Economics Management Management & Leadership Marketing Marketing & Sales
Episodes
  • B2B Brands Are Too Measurable to Be Memorable, with Lindsay Cournoyer

    B2B Brands Are Too Measurable to Be Memorable, with Lindsay Cournoyer
    Jun 23 2026
    About this episode Here’s something most B2B marketers know but do not always say out loud. We have gotten very good at measuring things. Attribution. Pipeline metrics. Sourced revenue. Influenced revenue. Cost per lead. And yet, a lot of B2B brands are still forgettable. Not because the marketers are bad. Because the system keeps pulling them toward what can be tracked, reported, and defended in the next pipeline review or board meeting. That is the tension at the center of this conversation with Lindsay Cournoyer, Fractional CMO and Brand Marketing Consultant at LC Consulting, and former CMO at Blue J. Lindsay has led marketing at companies including Axonify, Coconut Software, and Blue J. At Blue J, an AI-powered tax research company, she helped 5x revenue and raise $122 million in Series D funding. But that is not the main reason I wanted to talk with her. I wanted to talk with Lindsay because while that growth was happening, she made a brand bet that many B2B marketers would struggle to defend on a dashboard. She invested in out-of-home advertising. Billboards. Elevator ads. Radio. Physical media in a B2B SaaS company. That is not the usual B2B playbook. But Lindsay believed the company needed something that the usual performance channels were not delivering: awareness, trust, and memory in buyers’ minds before they were ready to enter a sales process. Her line from LinkedIn captures the problem clearly: “B2B brands are so obsessed with being measurable that they forget to be memorable.” That is where this conversation starts. We talk about why performance marketing can capture demand but cannot create all of it, how Lindsay made the case for out-of-home inside a B2B SaaS company, what she measured before and after the campaign, and why brand work can feel risky when marketing already has to justify itself more than other functions. If you have ever felt pressure to optimize for a metric instead of an outcome, this episode is for you. About Lindsay Cournoyer Lindsay Cournoyer is a Fractional CMO and Brand Marketing Consultant at LC Consulting. She has led marketing at B2B companies including Axonify, Coconut Software, and Blue J, where she most recently served as CMO. At Blue J, she helped the company grow revenue 5x and raise $122 million in Series D funding. Lindsay works with B2B SaaS founders and leadership teams on brand strategy, messaging, and go-to-market. Connect with Lindsay Connect with Lindsay Cournoyer on LinkedIn Chapters 00:00 Introduction: B2B Brands Are Too Measurable to Be Memorable 01:53 Why Brand Has to Create Demand Before Performance Captures It 03:29 The CEO Saw the Brand Problem 04:24 The Marketing Tax and Why Brand Needs CEO Support 07:35 Making the Case for Brand Inside the Business 10:11 How Lindsay Measured Awareness and Consideration 13:50 Staying Steady When the Bet Feels Risky 16:55 What to Do When Your Company Doesn’t Value Brand 22:26 How to Make the Case for Brand Investment A few things worth taking away Performance marketing has a role, but it mostly captures existing demand. Brand helps create the demand performance later captures. B2B buyers need to remember you before they are ready to buy. If you are not already planted in their mind, you may never make the shortlist. Out-of-home can be targeted in B2B when you know where your buyers work, commute, gather, and pay attention. The marketing tax is real. Many marketing leaders spend too much time justifying their function rather than doing the work that creates long-term value. A CEO who understands brand changes the entire marketing environment. Without that support, big brand bets are much harder to make. Brand can be measured, but not always through the same dashboard logic as demand generation. Lindsay used pre- and post-campaign surveys to measure awareness, perceptions, consideration, and likelihood of purchase. A brand campaign can move more than awareness. In Lindsay’s case, they saw an increase in awareness and purchase consideration. Sometimes the best thing a marketer can do is accept the reality of where they are, protect their sense of worth, and look for a better environment where marketing is understood. If a CEO does not understand brand, use examples from their own life. Show them how brands earn memory before the buying moment. Sometimes you have to earn the right to make a brand investment by first showing how marketing contributes to pipeline and revenue. A few lines that stuck with me “B2B brands are so obsessed with being measurable that they forget to be memorable.” — Lindsay Cournoyer “Marketing’s true job is to carve out that place in your buyers’ brains.” — Lindsay Cournoyer “We have to build brand awareness and trust and credibility before you really step on the gas of performance marketing.” — Lindsay Cournoyer “There are companies out there who actually get it. They are very hard to find, but they are out there.” — Lindsay Cournoyer “Sales ...
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    25 mins
  • Growth Isn’t a Headcount Problem. You’re Scaling Imprecision, with DeAnna Ransom

    Growth Isn’t a Headcount Problem. You’re Scaling Imprecision, with DeAnna Ransom
    Jun 16 2026
    DeAnna Ransom explains why more reps, more tools, and more activity aren’t fixing pipeline, and why modern GTM teams need more precision, stronger retention, and deeper customer understanding. About this episode Most B2B growth teams are doing more than ever. More reps. More tools. More signals. More outbound. More dashboards. And yet, for many teams, the pipeline still doesn’t follow. That’s the tension at the center of this conversation with DeAnna Ransom, Chief Growth Officer at Betterbot. DeAnna is rebuilding a GTM motion in real time from the inside. She’s not talking about this from the sidelines. She’s in the seat, doing the work, and seeing firsthand where the old growth math is breaking. Her argument is clear: growth in 2026 is not a headcount problem. It’s a precision problem. When teams add people to a motion that isn’t precise, they don’t fix the problem. They scale imprecision. We get into why AI didn’t break outbound but held it up to a mirror, why teams often have data about people without actually knowing them, why visibility has to come before scale, and why retention is no longer just a customer success issue. It’s a growth strategy. We also talk about the CMO tax, what it takes for marketing leaders to be seen as business leaders, and why the modern growth leader has to build a system precise enough to scale and human enough to trust. If your team is doing more but getting less back, this conversation is worth sitting with. About DeAnna Ransom DeAnna Ransom is the Chief Growth Officer at Betterbot, an AI platform serving the multifamily industry. She has more than 20 years of growth and leadership experience across B2B and nonprofit sectors. Her background spans sales, marketing, and customer experience, which gives her a different view of the revenue motion. Instead of treating marketing, sales, and customer experience as separate functions, DeAnna looks at them as one growth system designed around the customer. Chapters 00:00 Introduction: Growth Is a Precision Problem 01:13 More Activity Isn’t Creating More Pipeline 03:21 Data Isn’t the Same as Knowing the Buyer 04:48 Building a GTM Motion from the Ground Up 07:13 Using Retention to Sharpen Your ICP 09:26 Overcoming the CMO Tax 16:03 Why Retention Is Durable Growth 20:01 How to Start: Audit the Customers You Already Have 23:14 The Modern Growth Leader’s Role A few things worth taking away Growth teams don’t have an activity shortage. They have a precision problem. Adding people to a motion that isn’t working can make the problem worse because it scales imprecision. AI is not the core problem. It exposes whether your outbound motion is relevant or just louder. Having data about a buyer is not the same as knowing the buyer. Before you scale, you need visibility: attribution, forecasting, lead to cash, handoffs, leaks, stalls, and where relationships are weak. Retention is not just a customer success metric. It’s one of the most capital-efficient growth levers a company has. The best customers should teach you who to pursue next. A quiet customer is not always a happy customer. Marketing leaders need to come in as business leaders, not just campaign leaders. The modern growth leader has to be both systems architect and translator. A few lines that stuck with me “When you add people to a motion that isn’t precise, it isn’t working. You’re scaling imprecision.” — DeAnna Ransom “AI didn’t break outbound. It held it up to a mirror.” — DeAnna Ransom “You can’t scale what you can’t see.” — DeAnna Ransom “A quiet customer does not automatically equate a happy customer.” — DeAnna Ransom “Your customers are your business.” — DeAnna Ransom “The modern growth leader’s job is to build a system that is precise enough to scale, yet human enough to trust.” — DeAnna Ransom Resources mentioned Betterbot DeAnna Ransom on LinkedIn Transcript Brian Carroll: Hello everyone, welcome to The B2B Roundtable. I’m Brian Carroll. Excited to be with all of you today. What I keep hearing from leaders right now is this: they hired the SDR team, added the signals, added the technology, and their budget went up, but the pipeline doesn’t follow. And so they hired more and they switched tools and they started a new initiative and the results still didn’t move. I’ve come to believe that this problem isn’t capacity, it’s precision. And most teams have more activity than ever, but they have less signal from real buyers. My guest today said AI didn’t break outbound, it held it up to a mirror. And DeAnna Ransom is the Chief Growth Officer at Betterbot. She’s rebuilding the GTM motion in real time from the inside. Now, if you’re a CMO, growth leader, or GTM operator who’s felt the squeeze between AI noise and being able to connect with your buyers, this conversation’s for you. So, DeAnna, you said that growth in 2026 isn’t a headcount problem. It’s a precision problem...
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    26 mins
  • The Gumball Machine Is Broken: Jon Miller on What Comes After the MQL

    The Gumball Machine Is Broken: Jon Miller on What Comes After the MQL
    Jun 3 2026
    About this episode Most B2B marketing still runs on a single number: the marketing qualified lead. Jon Miller is one of the few people who can tell you where that number came from, because he helped build the system that produced it — first at Marketo, where he helped create the marketing automation category, then at Engagio, then at Demandbase. What makes this conversation different is that Jon went back and diagnosed his own creation. He’s not quietly onto the next thing. He’s saying, out loud, what the MQL got wrong about how people actually buy — and he’s careful to credit what it got right before he takes it apart. The short version: roughly 95% of buyers have built their shortlist before they ever talk to a seller. The MQL was designed to catch the last 5% who raise their hand. So the real question isn’t how to optimize lead capture. It’s what you do with everyone who isn’t ready yet — the 95% the old model was built to ignore. We get into why buying behaves more like weather than a vending machine, the three-tier model Jon uses instead of MQLs, why he thinks legacy automation tools can’t keep up, and how the best CMOs are quietly rewiring what they report to the board. If you’ve ever felt like you were pedaling into a headwind running the playbook that used to work, this one’s for you. About Jon Miller Jon Miller founded Marketo in 2006 and helped define the marketing automation category. He went on to found Engagio, which was acquired by Demandbase in 2020, served as CMO at Demandbase, and is now building Phave, an AI-native marketing automation platform. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Jon Miller and his journey 01:24 Diagnosing the MQL model 03:27 The gumball machine / nonlinear buying idea 07:23 What the MQL got right 10:14 The three-tiered model of engagement 14:22 The role of CMOs in modern marketing 18:17 AI’s impact on marketing automation 19:55 The Spotify playlist analogy 22:53 The Peppers and Rogers/one-to-one thread 24:43 Common mistakes moving off the MQL 25:25 The three CMO dashboards 27:25 Advice for CMOs making the shift A few things worth taking away The MQL started as a good idea — a contract between marketing and sales — and got gamed over time as teams chased volume.Buying isn’t linear. With six to sixteen people on a buying committee researching in places you can’t even track, “run a campaign, get a lead” no longer describes reality.Hand raisers are the gold standard, but waiting for them means you only ever talk to the 5% who already built their shortlist without you.Jon’s three tiers — hand raisers, MQX, and MEX — give you a way to work the 95% instead of ignoring them.When you move off MQL volume as your headline metric, expect the numbers to drop before quality and conversion rise. Set that expectation early, or you’ll hit a buzzsaw.The strongest CMOs report pipeline across all sources to the board and stop fighting over who sourced what. A few lines that stuck with me “Put your quarter in, get your gumball out. Put your campaign in, get your MQL out. I just don’t think that’s the way buying works.” — Jon Miller “If you only wait for somebody to raise their hand, you’re talking to the 5% in market. And they’ve already built their shortlist without you.” — Jon Miller “You can’t get there with a rules-based system. You just end up with spaghetti.” — Jon Miller Resources mentioned The B2B CMO Project — research on the strategic CMO and the three-dashboard modelMike Bosworth, Solution SellingDon Peppers and Martha Rogers, The One to One FutureKathleen Schaub, Marketing in the Great Big Messy Real World Transcript Brian Carroll (00:05) Welcome to The B2B Roundtable, where we go inside the ideas, people, and decisions shaping modern revenue teams and how they actually work. I’m Brian Carroll, and today my guest is Jon Miller. I first met Jon way back in 2006, when he founded Marketo and helped build the marketing automation category as we know it today. In 2015 he founded Engagio, which was acquired by Demandbase in 2020. Now he’s building Phave, an AI-native marketing automation platform. Here’s what makes this conversation different from other podcasts you’ve listened to: Jon didn’t just build the next thing and quietly move on, the way a lot of founders do. He’s gone back and started diagnosing the problems with something he previously created. He’s talking about what’s wrong, and why it’s failing buyers today. And here’s why it matters right now. Before they ever talk to a seller, 95% of buyers have already designed their shortlist. The MQL is built to capture the last 5% who self-identify. What about the 95% who haven’t yet? So, Jon — when did you first start thinking the MQL model was broken, not just underperforming? How did you get there? Jon Miller (01:24) It started, more than anything else, during my time at Demandbase. After we merged Engagio and Demandbase together ...
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    29 mins
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