The biggest AI risk isn't hallucination, says Santiago Castro. It's expecting a generative tool to behave like a search engine.Edosa Odaro and Lindley Gooden sit down with Santiago Castro, Director of Data & AI Strategy at Pay.UK (the UK's retail payments authority) and formerly Global Head of AI & Automation at MUFG, to examine why so many organisations are still applying old, deterministic thinking to a new, probabilistic technology.The conversation moves between the short-term instinct to cut cost and the longer-term case for using AI to create value, and between individual boardroom groupthink and organisational values, and asks the question most boards are still avoiding: are you building your AI strategy to survive next quarter, or to still be relevant in five years?GUESTSantiago Castro, Director of Data & AI Strategy, Pay.UK. Formerly Global Head of AI & Automation, MUFG.————————————————————WHAT YOU'LL TAKE AWAY►"Why three different AI models giving three different answers to the same question is a feature, not a hallucination►"The "Company A vs Company B" thought experiment: why cutting half your people to deploy AI faster loses, long-term, to the company that keeps them and builds new value instead► How AI can take the ego out of boardroom groupthink, surfacing the thing everyone was thinking but wouldn't say out loud►"The one AI risk Santiago believes most boards haven't priced in yet► Why "digital first" and "data driven" have given way to "values driven," and what that actually means in practice⏰ EPISODE TIMESTAMPS00:00 - Cold open: "This is not a Google search"01:23 - Why old, deterministic frameworks can't explain generative AI03:44 - Assumptions, curiosity, and what "hallucination" actually means06:28 - Automation vs reinvention: the Uber and Airbnb AI lesson08:33 - Is AI the "holy grail" for cutting costs?09:16 - Company A vs Company B: the thought experiment every board should run12:57 - Taking the ego out of boardroom groupthink14:51 - The left-brain, right-brain case for AI as a playground, not a crutch19:16 - Where AI hits a hard stop: financial advice, guardrails, human-in-the-loop21:14 - The number one AI risk nobody's pricing in28:33 - Santiago's own AI agents, built from his favourite philosophers30:00 - "This is values driven": why digital-first and data-driven aren't enough36:16 - What typewriters and painting teach us about AI and jobs──────────────────────────────────────ABOUT THE AI VALUES PODCAST:The AI Values Podcast is where leaders come to think clearly about the trade-offs behind AI adoption not just the opportunities. Hosted by Edosa Odaro (author, 'The Values of AI') and Lindley Gooden (author, 'The Future of Truth'), with weekly conversations at the intersection of AI, trust, governance, and the future of work.🎙 SUBSCRIBE to The AI Values Podcast for honest, rigorous conversations at the intersection of AI ethics, AI governance, and business leadership.◼ Find out more The AI Values Institute◼ Reach out: podcast@theaivalues.org ◼ Get the Weekly AI Values Dispatch ◼ Co-Hosts: Edosa Odaro & Lindley Gooden

Gartner says just 1 in 50 AI investments deliver transformational value. So is this the AI bubble bursting, or the smartest money in the room?In Episode 15 of The AI Values Podcast, Edosa Odaro and Lindley Gooden go head-to-head on the question every board is quietly asking: is the AI investment boom built on value, or on belief? With global AI spend racing past $2.5 trillion, the conversation cuts through the AI hype to separate the AI ROI that's real from the AI valuation that's just expectation, using the dot-com boom and the Victorian railway mania as the cautionary tale.THIS WEEK: Just Edosa and Lindley working one problem, the AI bubble question, from two different angles: governance and accountability versus personal, human value.WHAT IS COVERED► There are two AI economies running at once. One is value-based, built on real productivity gains. The other is expectation-based, built on valuation and hype. Most boards are only watching one of them.► The railway investment boom is the closest historical parallel. Enormous capital flooded in, but not every line got built, and not every line that was built ever delivered a return. Sound familiar?► "So valuable we wish we'd never asked the question whether it's worth it." That's Edosa's bar for genuine AI value, and it's a much higher bar than most current AI deployments clear.► AI washing gets called out directly. Sticking an "AI-driven" label on everything doesn't create AI ROI, it just adds noise to a market already struggling to tell value from belief.► Lindley makes the case that AI value is ultimately personal, not just organisational. Fewer chores, more room for the things that matter, that's the test that actually drives adoption.⏰ EPISODE TIMESTAMPS00:01 - The AI Bubble: Branding Exercise or Real Value? 00:35 - AI Investment and the Railroad Analogy 01:47 - AI Washing and the AI Hype Problem 03:29 - Not Every Railway Got Built: A Warning for AI Investment06:16 - Two Currencies: Value and Belief in the AI Economy 09:01 - AI ROI: Value Economy vs Expectation Economy 12:01 - Balancing AI Benefits Against Hidden Risk 12:36 - Closing Reflections──────────────────────────────────────ABOUT THE AI VALUES PODCAST:The AI Values Podcast is where leaders come to think clearly about the trade-offs behind AI adoption not just the opportunities. Hosted by Edosa Odaro (author, 'The Values of AI') and Lindley Gooden (author, 'The Future of Truth'), with weekly conversations at the intersection of AI, trust, governance, and the future of work.🎙 SUBSCRIBE to The AI Values Podcast for honest, rigorous conversations at the intersection of AI ethics, AI governance, and business leadership.◼ Find out more about The AI Values Institute ◼ Reach out: podcast@theaivalues.org ◼ Get the Weekly AI Values Dispatch ◼ Co-hosts: Edosa Odaro & Lindley GoodenListen to the The AI Values Podcast on:◼ Youtube◼ Apple Podcast

89% of UK organisations are deploying agentic AI. Only 21% have mature AI governance to match. What happens when you automate to death, and who pays?

In Episode 14 of The AI Values Podcast, Edosa Odaro and Lindley Gooden are joined by Ming Tang, former Chief Digital, Data & Technology Officer at NHS England, for one of the most grounded conversations this podcast has produced on what responsible AI leadership actually demands. No hype. No techno-optimism. Just hard-won evidence from one of the most consequential AI and digital transformations in UK public sector history, applied directly to the decisions every board and C-suite faces right now.

GUEST: MING TANGMing Tang is a senior digital, data, and technology leader with a long track record of delivering large-scale transformation and value through modern digital platforms, data, and AI-enabled services. She led digital technology and data for NHS England, one of the largest technology functions in the entire UK government, and drove the work to create a digital-first NHS, encompassing AI diagnostics, electronic records, and national cybersecurity resilience.

WHAT IS COVERED

► "I want AI to do my washing, not my creative writing." Ming Tang draws the line most organisations miss: what AI should do, and what it should never touch. Get this wrong and everything starts to sound the same.

► The fallacy of efficiency. Automating what you already do doesn't create value. It locks you in. Ming Tang on why efficiency without a reimagined outcome is a strategic trap, backed by what she saw at the NHS.

► Human in the loop, NHS-style. Ming Tang's team built a four-agent framework to run checks inside clinical pathways. The human doesn't review every output. The human decides where the risk is. That's the difference.

► The pre-mortem question. Before you deploy, ask: what don't you want AI to do to your organisation? Ming Tang says most boards skip this. She thinks it's the most important question in the room.

► Cybersecurity is the agentic AI risk nobody is taking seriously enough. Bad actors are deploying millions of agents to probe your weak points. One gets through, and millions get paid. Ming Tang on why "doing more than the minimum" is now the floor, not the ceiling.

⏰ EPISODE TIMESTAMPS

00:00 — AI Governance in the NHS: What Should AI Never Be Allowed to Do?

03:03 — Ming Tang's Career, From Pharmaceuticals to NHS England

06:58 — AI Augmentation vs. Replacement — What Does the Ideal Look Like?

13:29 — The Fallacy of Efficiency: Why Automating to Death Locks Your Organisation In

18:30 — Entry-Level Jobs, Critical Thinking, and the Generation AI Is Quietly Leaving Behind

24:39 — Human in the Loop in Healthcare: The NHS Framework for AI Accountability

32:20 — Cybersecurity, Agentic AI, and Why C-Suites Are Still Unprepared

39:46 — Leadership Now: "What's One Decision You Need to Make Right Now?" Ming's Answer

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ABOUT THE AI VALUES PODCAST:

The AI Values Podcast is where leaders come to think clearly about the trade-offs behind AI adoption not just the opportunities. Hosted by Edosa Odaro (author, 'The Values of AI') and Lindley Gooden (author, 'The Future of Truth'), with weekly conversations at the intersection of AI, trust, governance, and the future of work.🎙

SUBSCRIBE to The AI Values Podcast for honest, rigorous conversations at the intersection of AI ethics, AI governance, and business leadership.

◼ Find out more about The AI Values Institute

◼ Reach out: podcast@theaivalues.org

◼ Get the Weekly AI Values Dispatch

◼ Co-hosts: Edosa Odaro & Lindley Gooden