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Rounding Up

Rounding Up

By: The Math Learning Center
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 Welcome to Rounding Up, the professional learning podcast brought to you by The Math Learning Center. Two things have always been true in education: Ongoing professional learning is essential, and teachers are extremely busy people. Rounding Up is a podcast designed to provide meaningful, bite-sized professional learning for busy educators and instructional leaders. I'm Mike Wallus, vice president for educator support at The Math Learning Center and host of the show. In each episode, we'll explore topics important to teachers, instructional leaders, and anyone interested in elementary mathematics education. Topics such as posing purposeful questions, effectively recording student thinking, cultivating students' math identity, and designing asset-based instruction from multilingual learners. Don't miss out! Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts. Each episode will also be published on the Bridges Educator Site. We hope you'll give Rounding Up a try, and that the ideas we discuss have a positive impact on your teaching and your students' learning.2022 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org Mathematics Science
Episodes
  • Season 4 | Episode 16 – Kristin Frang, Understanding the Roots of Fluency with Addition & Subtraction

    Season 4 | Episode 16 – Kristin Frang, Understanding the Roots of Fluency with Addition & Subtraction
    Apr 23 2026
    Kristin Frang, Understanding the Roots of Fluency with Addition & Subtraction ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 16 Research suggests that supporting students' fluency with addition and subtraction hinges on understanding how children's mathematical thinking develops. So what are the concepts and ideas that play a part in fluency with combinations to 10, 20, and beyond? Today, we'll explore this question with Kristin Frang, director of instructional programs at Integrow Numeracy Solutions. BIOGRAPHY Kristin Frang is the director of instructional programs for Integrow Numeracy Solutions. She designs resources and services that support states, districts, schools, and individuals in transforming numeracy education. RESOURCES "Understanding Units Coordination" Season 4, Episode 11 of the Rounding Up podcast Integrow Numeracy Solutions website blog email address On Track to Numeracy book by Lucinda "Petey" MacCarty, Kurt Kinsey, David Ellemor-Collins, and Robert J. Wright TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome to the podcast, Kristin. It is so great to be talking with you today. Kristin Frang: It's great to be here. I feel so honored to be on this podcast. Mike: Before we dive into a conversation about addition and subtraction, I'd like to do a bit of grounding. So you're currently the director of instructional programs for Integrow Numeracy Solutions. I wonder if briefly you could tell the listeners: What is Integrow Numeracy Solutions, and what's its mission? Kristin: Yeah. Integrow Numeracy Solutions' mission is to transform numeracy education by connecting research with practice and empowering educators to advance student mathematical thinking and success. But I really want to bring that mission to life through a story, just a quick story, if I can. Prior to my role with Integrow, I was a K–12 mathematics consultant. And one of the things that I did was, when the Common Core [State Standards] were released, I worked with teachers to transition to the then-new standards. We studied many documents together, including progression documents that were included in the standards, and teachers were honestly fascinated by this idea of a progression and that they were embedded into the standard. But I remember an instance where we had been studying these progressions and a teacher came up and said to me, "I know where my students are at; I can see them in these progressions. But how do I get them to the next stage?" And I didn't have an answer (laughs) at that point. I was a former middle school and high school teacher. I was working with elementary teachers. I was studying, just like them, these progression documents, and I could only categorize the reasoning that was in front of us. And so that next step to say, "Oh, this is what I would do and bring into action in the classroom," I didn't have an answer for. And so that's really where I was introduced to Integrow—formerly [the] US Math Recovery Council, but now Integrow Numeracy Solutions. And at the heart of our mission to empower educators is to bring research to the classroom in accessible and practical ways that advance student reasoning. We do this in professional learning, we do it in supplemental resources, and we also hire and train educators to deliver high-dosage tutoring for students to accelerate their learning. Mike: I want to just linger on something you said, which was—and I really appreciate both the truth of the statement you made and also the vulnerability, which is to say—I think for many teachers, there's this experience of, "I can see my students in these progressions, but I'm not sure what to do when it comes to making moves to shift where they're at or help them move." And I think that's a profound truth for so many teachers. And I think it's really important that folks like you, who are doing this work, acknowledge that that's a place you were in once as well because that's so true for so many of us. Kristin: Yeah. There's always a new thing where we're watching students, we're thinking about the next steps. And so often it boils down to categorizing the things that students are doing now, but not often figuring out: What are the true actions that we take with real children who are in front of us to get them to progress in their own reasoning? We can tell them the next step, but my belief system that is aligned with Integrow Numeracy Solutions is that the most powerful thing is to help students have those experiences and create that understanding themselves. And to do that, it's more complex than just knowing what the next benchmark is for them. Mike: I think that's a helpful introduction. And I also find it to be a good segue for all the questions that I wanted to explore today. So let me start here: It feels important to acknowledge that supporting students' addition and subtraction fluency actually hinges on understanding how children's mathematical thinking develops. So I wonder if you can talk about some of...
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    34 mins
  • Season 4 | Episode 15 – Dr. DeAnn Huinker & Dr. Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 2

    Season 4 | Episode 15 – Dr. DeAnn Huinker & Dr. Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 2
    Apr 9 2026
    DeAnn Huinker & Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 2 ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 15 Research confirms that early mathematics experiences play a more significant role than we once imagined. Studies suggest that specific number competencies in 4-year-olds are strong predictors of fifth grade mathematics success. So what does it look like to provide meaningful mathematical experiences for our youngest learners? Today, we'll explore this question with DeAnn Huinker from UW-Milwaukee and Melissa Hedges from the Milwaukee Public Schools. BIOGRAPHY Dr. DeAnn Huinker is a professor of mathematics education in the Department of Teaching and Learning and directs the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Center for Mathematics and Science Education Research. Dr. Huinker teaches courses in mathematics education at the early childhood, elementary, and middle school levels. Dr. Melissa Hedges is a curriculum specialist who supports K–5 and K–8 schools for the Milwaukee Public Schools. RESOURCES Learning Trajectories website, featuring the work of Doug Clements and Julie Sarama Math Trajectories for Young Learners book by DeAnn Huinker and Melissa Hedges TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: A note to our listeners: This episode contains the second half of my conversation with DeAnn Huinker and Melissa Hedges about math trajectories for young learners. If you've not already listened to the first half of the conversation, I encourage you to go back and give it a listen. The second half of the conversation begins with DeAnn and Melissa discussing practices that educators can use to provide students a more meaningful experience with skip-counting. Melissa Hedges: One of the things, Mike, that I would add on that actually I just thought about is when you were talking about the importance of us letting the children figure out how they want to approach that task of organizing their count is it's coming from the child. And Clements and Sarama talk about the beautiful work about the trajectory, [which] is that we see that the mathematics comes from the child and we can nurture that along in developmentally appropriate ways. The other idea that popped into my mind is it's kind of a parallel to when our children get older and we want to teach them a way to add and a way to subtract, and I'm going to show you how to do it and you follow my procedure. I'm going to show it. You follow my procedure. We know that that's not best practice either. And so we're really looking at, how do we grab onto that idea of number sense and move forward with it in a way that's meaningful with children from as young as 1 and 2 all the way up? Mike: DeAnn, I was going to ask a question to follow up on something that you said just now when you said even something like skip-counting should be done with quantities. And you, I think, anticipated the question I was going to ask, which is: What are the implications of this idea of connecting number and quantity for processes that we have used in the past, like rote counting or skip-counting? And I think what you're saying is we need to attend to those things that, like the counting sequence, we should not create an artificial barrier between speaking the words in sequence and quantity. Am I reading you right or is there more nuance than I'm describing? DeAnn Huinker: I think you're right on target, Mike. (laughs) Connecting those things to quantity. And I mean, the one that's always salient for me is skip-counting. Skip-counting is such a rote skill for so many children that they don't realize when they go, "5, 10, 15" that they actually have seen, "Oh, there's five [items], there's five more items, there's five more items." So it's making that connection to quantity for something like skip-counting, but also on the counting trajectory, then we start thinking about, "What's a ten? And what makes a ten?" And, "What is 30? And how many tens are composing or embedded in that number 30?" And again, it's not just to rotely say, "3 tens." No. "Show me those objects. Can you make those tens?" Because sometimes we find disconnects. Kids will tell us things and then we say, "Can you show me?" And it doesn't match. (laughs) So we continually start thinking about quantities and putting [objects] with quantities. Let me add one more thing. In the counting trajectory—and this was very intentional for Melissa—is when we have kids count, we'd like to give them like 31 or 32 counters to see whether [...] they can actually bridge that decade and to go beyond. The other thing that we did, so getting like beyond a ten, also we find when kids get to the number 100, they stop. They just think that's the end. I got to 100, I'm going to stop. And then we say, "Oh, what would be the next number?" And some will say 110, some will say 200, some will give us something else that we find bridging 100 is on the trajectory. And that's actually a really critical point. And again, we want it with ...
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    26 mins
  • Season 4 | Episode 14 – Dr. DeAnn Huinker & Dr. Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 1

    Season 4 | Episode 14 – Dr. DeAnn Huinker & Dr. Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 1
    Mar 19 2026
    DeAnn Huinker & Melissa Hedges, Math Trajectories for Young Learners, Part 1 ROUNDING UP: SEASON 4 | EPISODE 14 Research confirms that early mathematics experiences play a more significant role than we once imagined. Studies suggest that specific number competencies in 4-year-olds are strong predictors of fifth grade mathematics success. So what does it look like to provide meaningful mathematical experiences for our youngest learners? Today, we'll explore this question with DeAnn Huinker from UW-Milwaukee and Melissa Hedges from the Milwaukee Public Schools. BIOGRAPHY Dr. DeAnn Huinker is a professor of mathematics education in the Department of Teaching and Learning and directs the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Center for Mathematics and Science Education Research. Dr. Huinker teaches courses in mathematics education at the early childhood, elementary, and middle school levels. Dr. Melissa Hedges is a curriculum specialist who supports K–5 and K–8 schools for the Milwaukee Public Schools. RESOURCES Math Trajectories for Young Learners book by DeAnn Huinker and Melissa Hedges Learning Trajectories website, featuring the work of Doug Clements and Julie Sarama School Readiness and Later Achievement journal article by Greg Duncan and colleagues Early Math Trajectories: Low‐Income Children's Mathematics Knowledge From Ages 4 to 11 journal article by Bethany Rittle-Johnson and colleagues TRANSCRIPT Mike Wallus: Welcome back to the podcast, DeAnn and Melissa. You have both been guests previously. It is a pleasure to have both of you back with us again to discuss your new book, Math Trajectories for Young Learners. Melissa Hedges: Thank you for having us. We're both very excited to be here. DeAnn Huinker: Yes, I concur. Good to see you and be here again. Mike: So DeAnn, I think what I'd like to do is just start with an important grounding question. What's a trajectory? DeAnn: That's exactly where we need to start, right? So as I think about, "What are learning trajectories?," I always envision them as these road maps of children's mathematical development. And what makes them so compelling is that these learning pathways are highly predictable. We can see where children are in their learning, and then we can be more intentional in our teaching when we know where they are currently at. But if I kind of think about the development of learning trajectories, they really are based on weaving together insights from research and practice to give us this clear picture of the typical development of children's learning. And as we always think about these learning trajectories, there are three main components. The first component is a mathematical goal. This is the big ideas of math that children are learning. For example, counting, subitizing, decomposing shapes. The second component of a learning trajectory are developmental progressions. This is really the heart of a trajectory. And the progression lays out a sequence of distinct levels of thinking and reasoning that grow in mathematical sophistication. And then the third component are activities and tasks that align to and support children's movement along that particular trajectory. Now, it's really important that we point out the learning trajectories that we use in our work with teachers and children were developed by Doug Clements and Julie Sarama. So we have taken their trajectories and worked to make them more usable and applicable for teachers in our area. So what Doug and Julie did is they mapped out children's learning starting at birth—when children are just-borns, 1-year-olds, 2-year-olds—and they mapped it out up till about age 8. And right now, last count, they have about 20 learning trajectories. And they're in different topics like number, operations, geometry, and measurement. And we have to put in a plug. They have a wonderful website. It's learningtrajectories.org. We go there often to learn more about the trajectories and to get ideas for activities and tasks. Now, we're talking about this new book we have on math trajectories for young children. And in the book, we actually take a deep dive into just four of the trajectories. We look at counting, subitizing, composing numbers, and adding and subtracting. So back to your original question: What are they? Learning trajectories are highly predictable roadmaps of children's math learning that we can use to inform and support developmentally appropriate instruction. Mike: That's an incredibly helpful starting point. And I want to ask a follow-up just to get your thinking on the record. I wonder if you have thoughts about how you imagine educators could or should make use of the trajectories. Melissa: This is Melissa. I'll pick up with that question. So I'll piggyback on DeAnn's response and thinking around this highly predictable nature of a trajectory as a way to ground my first comment and that we want to always look at a trajectory as a tool. So it's really meant as...
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    25 mins
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